As a musician should i continue to create new music?

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Re: As a musician should i continue to create new music?

Postby rancidpunk » Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:15 am

Artistic creation - the creation of beautiful or significant things.
MRI scanners, x-ray photography, the space shuttle, Walkman, world wide web, air bags, concorde, mp3 player, nvidia Gtx 295( :D ), space invaders, etc. etc. etc. All significant, some beautiful, some not, but all created by creative people for the benefit or enjoyment of mankind.
Albert Einstein's Annus Mirabilis Papers - not artistic or creative? :lol:
Anybody else got any examples that would fall outside Chelsea's definition of creative?
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Re: As a musician should i continue to create new music?

Postby Grunchtherunch » Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:24 am

chelsea wrote:
grunchtherunch wrote:a point for chelsea if no one else has made it, I'm a musician although i will admit I'm still in college doing production etc. but I'm currently working on a few albums, and i plan to give a lot of this material for free, however i would look at some cases in which an incentive is given for the consumer to have the physical product - such as limited edition goods, and for example (and i know this is a fairly unique idea) Trent Reznor released one of his CDs 'Year zero' and when you played it in a cd player and it warmed up - it changed colour, that's something you can't torrent. i realize it's not easy to come up with these ideas and since you don't feel live shows are appropriate or you don't want to, i think you should definitely look into marketing towards your more dedicated fanbase, but don't squeeze them for too much cash. anyway you know, limited edition CD packages, offer high quality DVD audios for sale - (bigger file size harder to torrent - most people only look for mp3s) but there is definitely a high def audio audience to look into. perhaps make a live session DVD and sell that in blu ray as well. so maybe that's a few ideas you can look into, not all are sure to make you money obviously but I'm betting your hardcore fans are willing to support you through these products.

and as for the idea that a million myspace pages will be hard to find good music with, i think a more crowded music scene with less major record advertising involved will encourage creativity and more high quality music will get to the popular stage.



Yep that point has been made. If you wish to give your work away then thats your choice - i have zero problem with that. I choose not to give my work away and i do have a problem with people then stealing that work from me. And as things stand the law is meant to protect me and i would like to see it applied.

Yep, trent reznor does some very interesting things. And lots of people here keep making suggests, some interesting, some not so. All well and good. One little offshot i have myself is lecturing and performing at various music production and/or technology courses. One of my guises/groupswhatever you'd call it makes pretty unique use of live instrument playing and sampling that some music tech course's find interesting to show their students.

I disargree with your last point from the point of view of somone who just doesn't simply doesn't have enough time to manage all the nitty gritty details behind releasing and selling records. I don't think i'm much different from most people in that respect - i only have so much energy and so much hours in a day. So in a set up like you envision your asking on person (or maybe a few people) to wear basically too many hats i would think to be particullary good at anything. ergo the music standard will be dropped. Of course thats just an ophion, like your own, not a statment of fact.


yes true i wouldn't say i can just outright tell you a more crowded scene would be better but i guess the point I'm making in part is that whether we legalize file sharing or not it is still a problem for some people and a benefit to others, but i wouldn't say that because you have to diversify in your products that it lowers the standards. i realize you only have so much time but i mean if you want to do something and do it really well you find a way and find the time, I realize it requires a lot of time energy and thought into releasing your music. but for now the sad/or not depending on how you look at it, reality is that you have to gear your products release tactics towards the file sharing market which is part of the reason why i plan to release music for free. but regardless i think if you love making music don't give up on it find a way to make it work, and try not to blame people for file sharing too much because even people that think it's wrong do it because they can't help themselves, the modern music world calls for a much closer relationship with your fanbase than ever before.
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Re: As a musician should i continue to create new music?

Postby Grunchtherunch » Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:26 am

chelsea i know you didn't want to say who you are but your music sounds interesting don't suppose you could drop me an email with a link to a myspace or something id love to hear it?
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Re: As a musician should i continue to create new music?

Postby chelsea » Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:19 pm

grunchtherunch wrote:
yes true i wouldn't say i can just outright tell you a more crowded scene would be better but i guess the point I'm making in part is that whether we legalize file sharing or not it is still a problem for some people and a benefit to others, but i wouldn't say that because you have to diversify in your products that it lowers the standards. i realize you only have so much time but i mean if you want to do something and do it really well you find a way and find the time, I realize it requires a lot of time energy and thought into releasing your music. but for now the sad/or not depending on how you look at it, reality is that you have to gear your products release tactics towards the file sharing market which is part of the reason why i plan to release music for free. but regardless i think if you love making music don't give up on it find a way to make it work, and try not to blame people for file sharing too much because even people that think it's wrong do it because they can't help themselves, the modern music world calls for a much closer relationship with your fanbase than ever before.



Hi ya,

The more i think about it, the more i feel that the piracy model is totally unsustainable. To that end i don't think theres any point towards gearing my release's towards pirates (you say filesharer, i say thief). I don't see these peolpe as part of my fanbase to be honset. I guess maybe its part of my mindset. If i want something i'll get it and pay for it, weather its music, software, food, luxury type products that i don't really need etc. I don't belive i'm entitled just to take something for free just because someone can illegitmatly offer it to me. I don't buy stolen goods also.

And also i guess the question i asked int the title of the tread was pretty much a retorical question for me. I know i will carry on doing what i do anyway. I saw this site mentioned in a newspaper article (the telegraph i think it was) and i guess i was looking for the views of people who i expected would be pro piracy. I still don't really know if the pirate party is or not to be honset as that question hasn't been answered when i asked it. Reading the wiki didn't make it much clearer either although the use of words like spin and propraganda certainly didn't make me feel like i was dealing with people who fee they are morally in the right. But then i'm not a political person so maybe that goes with the terrority. I do know that they (ye?) want the copyright laws changed but don't really have a coherent arguement for it. The fact that it is now easy to pirate music isn't really an arguement and as a few people have pointed we live in a world of change so douthless it will change back to being hard to pirate again. And later on in time technology will swing back agin in favour of piracy and on and on.

And sorry, yes i do what to carry on protecting my annonimity.
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Re: As a musician should i continue to create new music?

Postby chelsea » Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:29 pm

rancidpunk wrote:Artistic creation - the creation of beautiful or significant things.
MRI scanners, x-ray photography, the space shuttle, Walkman, world wide web, air bags, concorde, mp3 player, nvidia Gtx 295( :D ), space invaders, etc. etc. etc. All significant, some beautiful, some not, but all created by creative people for the benefit or enjoyment of mankind.
Albert Einstein's Annus Mirabilis Papers - not artistic or creative? :lol:
Anybody else got any examples that would fall outside Chelsea's definition of creative?


If you read the exchange more closely the other chap was talking about his day job and gave a descripation of it, which is what we were talking about. Also i didn't give a defination of artistic creation. How many of the things on your list are protected by patents (some will be protected by numerous ones because of the leap of technology they created)? Do you think without the potential reward represented by that that everything on your list would have been researched, developed and eventully manufactured.

As to the straw poll i said i would take from engineers i know (i actually work with eletrical engineers but in a different field, i'm not one myself though - i just work in the office)

In general they didn't see the connection between doing your job as an engineer and being an artist. Except in the case of research engineers who develop new techniques and equipment etc.
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Re: As a musician should i continue to create new music?

Postby rancidpunk » Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:41 pm

That's like saying that if I invented the electric kettle a patent would prevent anyone else from making one, as opposed to preventing them from making an exact copy of my product. The scientific principle behind an electric kettle is not patented.
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Re: As a musician should i continue to create new music?

Postby Grunchtherunch » Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:48 pm

chelsea wrote:
grunchtherunch wrote:
yes true i wouldn't say i can just outright tell you a more crowded scene would be better but i guess the point I'm making in part is that whether we legalize file sharing or not it is still a problem for some people and a benefit to others, but i wouldn't say that because you have to diversify in your products that it lowers the standards. i realize you only have so much time but i mean if you want to do something and do it really well you find a way and find the time, I realize it requires a lot of time energy and thought into releasing your music. but for now the sad/or not depending on how you look at it, reality is that you have to gear your products release tactics towards the file sharing market which is part of the reason why i plan to release music for free. but regardless i think if you love making music don't give up on it find a way to make it work, and try not to blame people for file sharing too much because even people that think it's wrong do it because they can't help themselves, the modern music world calls for a much closer relationship with your fanbase than ever before.



Hi ya,

The more i think about it, the more i feel that the piracy model is totally unsustainable. To that end i don't think theres any point towards gearing my release's towards pirates (you say filesharer, i say thief). I don't see these peolpe as part of my fanbase to be honset. I guess maybe its part of my mindset. If i want something i'll get it and pay for it, weather its music, software, food, luxury type products that i don't really need etc. I don't belive i'm entitled just to take something for free just because someone can illegitmatly offer it to me. I don't buy stolen goods also.

And also i guess the question i asked int the title of the tread was pretty much a retorical question for me. I know i will carry on doing what i do anyway. I saw this site mentioned in a newspaper article (the telegraph i think it was) and i guess i was looking for the views of people who i expected would be pro piracy. I still don't really know if the pirate party is or not to be honset as that question hasn't been answered when i asked it. Reading the wiki didn't make it much clearer either although the use of words like spin and propraganda certainly didn't make me feel like i was dealing with people who fee they are morally in the right. But then i'm not a political person so maybe that goes with the terrority. I do know that they (ye?) want the copyright laws changed but don't really have a coherent arguement for it. The fact that it is now easy to pirate music isn't really an arguement and as a few people have pointed we live in a world of change so douthless it will change back to being hard to pirate again. And later on in time technology will swing back agin in favour of piracy and on and on.

And sorry, yes i do what to carry on protecting my annonimity.


fair enough, let me enlighten a little on arguments, there are several so the reason they are not listed is probably because people join the PP for different reasons, some people think that information should be free on principle, some people think that sharing is wrong but there is nothing we can do some people think that it is simply the new way of distribution and because of it people have to find a way to adjust, i think personally it encourages independent artists, and stops the monopoly record labels have ie. most independent labels have been bought by major ones.

It's just gotten to the point where stopping piracy would cause the censoring of the internet. for some people piracy is the better of two wrongs in that way. i think this was inevitable.

i would say you really can't discount file sharers or 'theifs' as you see it from your fan base if you plan to keep making music. just know that the people that download your music do it because they love to listen to it, but just reach out as much as you can you don't have to give things away or even do anything i suggested just put a personal message on your website, and maybe offer a donation section and note that you would much rather they bought your CDs.

personally i don't think it is ever going to be difficult to file share again, the internet is too versatile and there are too many people involved, especially considering faster forms of internet are on their way.

I'm not trying to convince you that it is necessarily right, because if you've read this much then you have made up your own mind, I'm just saying you're shooting yourself in the foot by saying people that download are not fans and you won't reach out.
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Re: As a musician should i continue to create new music?

Postby hxa7241 » Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:23 pm

Essentially what people like you are asking for is for other people to invent things/music/movies/better PCB's so that you can use them but not have to reward the person who created the thing your using


No that isn't it. People should be paid for creative time and effort, *not* for copies of things.

You must consider the basic parts of the matter. There is effort spent in creating something, and there are copies that can be made of what is created. These are separate.

Every copy made by someone else removes nothing from the creator, it only adds to the total of good that exists. But every copy prevented by copyright removes some good from the world. Since we want the most good, we want to enable as many copies as possible.

Good things must be made for copies to be made of them. So we must help people to work on making things. But if we pay by using copyright, that reduces the amount of copies and therefore good done. The most efficient and appropriate payment is for the effort spent in creation. Then the creator is compensated for loss of other earning, and there is no reduction in the eventual good done by the copies.
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Re: As a musician should i continue to create new music?

Postby chelsea » Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:39 pm

hxa7241 wrote:
Essentially what people like you are asking for is for other people to invent things/music/movies/better PCB's so that you can use them but not have to reward the person who created the thing your using


No that isn't it. People should be paid for creative time and effort, *not* for copies of things.

You must consider the basic parts of the matter. There is effort spent in creating something, and there are copies that can be made of what is created. These are separate.

Every copy made by someone else removes nothing from the creator, it only adds to the total of good that exists. But every copy prevented by copyright removes some good from the world. Since we want the most good, we want to enable as many copies as possible.

Good things must be made for copies to be made of them. So we must help people to work on making things. But if we pay by using copyright, that reduces the amount of copies and therefore good done. The most efficient and appropriate payment is for the effort spent in creation. Then the creator is compensated for loss of other earning, and there is no reduction in the eventual good done by the copies.


Have already gone over this twice already in this thread but here for a third then why someone copying my music is stealing from me:

I create music. I put a value on this music. Lets call it 10 (10 anything, euro's, dollars etc). If you want to own this music to use for yourself whenever you want you must buy it from me for 10. Someone pirates my work and instead makes it availbe for 0. 0 is less than 10. This now devalues my music as i can no longer sell it for 10 when somone can potentially obtain it for 0. This is what copyright protects. it stops you from making a copy of my song and underselling me or giving it away.

It appears to me to be a very basic and simple concept. What is hard to understand about this?
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Re: As a musician should i continue to create new music?

Postby chelsea » Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:44 pm

rancidpunk wrote:That's like saying that if I invented the electric kettle a patent would prevent anyone else from making one, as opposed to preventing them from making an exact copy of my product. The scientific principle behind an electric kettle is not patented.


Well i guess it doesn't make sense to allow the copyright or patent of the laws of the natural world really now does it ;)

Well how about we bring this all back to music then which is what i started this thread to discuss. It seems we've gone off into the area of patents which to be quite honset i don't know a lot about and don't have much interest in.

I've restated why to me copying my music is stealing in the reply above this one. Do you understand my position on that or do you disargree with it?
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Re: As a musician should i continue to create new music?

Postby chelsea » Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:58 pm

grunchtherunch wrote:


fair enough, let me enlighten a little on arguments, there are several so the reason they are not listed is probably because people join the PP for different reasons, some people think that information should be free on principle, some people think that sharing is wrong but there is nothing we can do some people think that it is simply the new way of distribution and because of it people have to find a way to adjust, i think personally it encourages independent artists, and stops the monopoly record labels have ie. most independent labels have been bought by major ones.

>Interesting - would seem to be a fairly broad view of ophion ye have then. Will be interesting to see what position is eventully finally taken. What faction/POV are you yourself?
As an independent artist it does the exact oppsite of encouraging me. Stoping me from earning money from my music hasn't been much of a help to honset!! :)



It's just gotten to the point where stopping piracy would cause the censoring of the internet. for some people piracy is the better of two wrongs in that way. i think this was inevitable.

>stopping people from doing illegal acts isn't censorship. This is a highly emotional example but what about child porn? Do you think its right just to leave that avaible on the internet or should the relevant authorites be doing their best to find the people responsible, closing them down and making them answerable to the law? Would that be censorship?

i would say you really can't discount file sharers or 'theifs' as you see it from your fan base if you plan to keep making music. just know that the people that download your music do it because they love to listen to it, but just reach out as much as you can you don't have to give things away or even do anything i suggested just put a personal message on your website, and maybe offer a donation section and note that you would much rather they bought your CDs.

personally i don't think it is ever going to be difficult to file share again, the internet is too versatile and there are too many people involved, especially considering faster forms of internet are on their way.

I'm not trying to convince you that it is necessarily right, because if you've read this much then you have made up your own mind, I'm just saying you're shooting yourself in the foot by saying people that download are not fans and you won't reach out.[/quote]

I guess we're just going to argree to disargree on the last two points here - i don't see people who steal my work as a fanbase and i also don't think its going to carry on as bad as it was been. Speculation i suppose really but there you go!! :)
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Re: As a musician should i continue to create new music?

Postby Grunchtherunch » Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:05 am

chelsea wrote:
grunchtherunch wrote:


fair enough, let me enlighten a little on arguments, there are several so the reason they are not listed is probably because people join the PP for different reasons, some people think that information should be free on principle, some people think that sharing is wrong but there is nothing we can do some people think that it is simply the new way of distribution and because of it people have to find a way to adjust, i think personally it encourages independent artists, and stops the monopoly record labels have ie. most independent labels have been bought by major ones.

>Interesting - would seem to be a fairly broad view of ophion ye have then. Will be interesting to see what position is eventully finally taken. What faction/POV are you yourself?
As an independent artist it does the exact oppsite of encouraging me. Stoping me from earning money from my music hasn't been much of a help to honset!! :)



It's just gotten to the point where stopping piracy would cause the censoring of the internet. for some people piracy is the better of two wrongs in that way. i think this was inevitable.

>stopping people from doing illegal acts isn't censorship. This is a highly emotional example but what about child porn? Do you think its right just to leave that avaible on the internet or should the relevant authorites be doing their best to find the people responsible, closing them down and making them answerable to the law? Would that be censorship?

i would say you really can't discount file sharers or 'theifs' as you see it from your fan base if you plan to keep making music. just know that the people that download your music do it because they love to listen to it, but just reach out as much as you can you don't have to give things away or even do anything i suggested just put a personal message on your website, and maybe offer a donation section and note that you would much rather they bought your CDs.

personally i don't think it is ever going to be difficult to file share again, the internet is too versatile and there are too many people involved, especially considering faster forms of internet are on their way.

I'm not trying to convince you that it is necessarily right, because if you've read this much then you have made up your own mind, I'm just saying you're shooting yourself in the foot by saying people that download are not fans and you won't reach out.


I guess we're just going to agree to disagree on the last two points here - i don't see people who steal my work as a fanbase and i also don't think its going to carry on as bad as it was been. Speculation i suppose really but there you go!! :)[/quote]

my POV is kind of more than one, i think art and culture should be shared, maybe it should be the choice of the artist but there is nothing we can do about it, but more than anything i just love a free culture. and by file sharing people are able to hear more music - which helps them create more diverse and learn more. because people file share does not necessarily mean they could buy the music if they didn't download it etc.etc.
and look i don't represent a view as a whole in the pirate party so take this next point as only my personal view.
you may think me disgusting or something but personally i think freedom of information is all or nothing and that includes anything - ie. child porn etc. but i do think it is the job of police to stop people from creating it. in an ideal world people wouldn't want to create it anyway but it is more important to educate and inform so that people know to set boundaries for themselves and not look at material they don't want to see.

fair enough if you think file sharing will take die down like trends have shown before, but it is likely that plenty of people who have downloaded from you have bought something from you - ('Last week another study was added to this ever growing list, arguing that pirates are 10 times more likely to buy music than those who don’t.')
full article - http://torrentfreak.com/why-pirates-buy-more-music-and-music-labels-fail-090428/ this article contains a lot of reasons our members agree with i would think.
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Re: As a musician should i continue to create new music?

Postby hxa7241 » Sat Aug 22, 2009 4:13 pm

I create music. I put a value on this music. Lets call it 10 . . . What is hard to understand about this?


I understand completely. The system you describe keeps your income higher. It is good for you. But the laws are not made just for you, they are made for society overall. Is the system you describe the most beneficial for everyone overall? That is what you have not considered.
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Re: As a musician should i continue to create new music?

Postby chelsea » Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:52 pm

hxa7241 wrote:I understand completely. The system you describe keeps your income higher. It is good for you. But the laws are not made just for you, they are made for society overall. Is the system you describe the most beneficial for everyone overall? That is what you have not considered.


Actually yes this system is good for everyone. If i continue to make enough money from music i can carry on making it. If someone then wants it they can have it. If i made more money from music i could do it totally full time without the distraction of a day job. I belive this would increase its standard. I can buy new instruments to experiment with, i can hire in musicians to play instruments i can't so i wouldn't have to use virtual or midi instruments. So the standard goes up. This will be better for the listener/purchaser.

If i don't make enough money from music i must either stop or cut corners. I can't justify to my partner (or myself) spending our babies creche fee's for the year on an instrument if it doesn't earn its keep back. So the standard of my music drops.

So the question is it better for society to have better quailty music availbe at a reasonable price or have lesser avaible quailty music avaible for free? Have you considered this? Whats good for society isn't necessarily the ability for you to have whatever you want without have earned it and paid for it.

I can't also help feeling that we're all overplaying the importance of music and entermainent a small bit too. We're talking about luxury products here, not essential medinces (i know ye have an interest there of course). If someone can't afford a cd for example well its not going to kill them now is it. I can't afford to eat out at 5 star restaurtants every night - that doesn't give me the right to walk in, eat the food and not pay for after i've had it. Someone earlier said in a post something along the lines of how hard it is to live every god damned day with copyright law. I thought that was a little dramatic at the time and havn't read anything yet to convince me otherwise.
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Re: As a musician should i continue to create new music?

Postby chelsea » Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:09 pm

grunchtherunch wrote:my POV is kind of more than one, i think art and culture should be shared, maybe it should be the choice of the artist but there is nothing we can do about it, but more than anything i just love a free culture. and by file sharing people are able to hear more music - which helps them create more diverse and learn more. because people file share does not necessarily mean they could buy the music if they didn't download it etc.etc.
and look i don't represent a view as a whole in the pirate party so take this next point as only my personal view.
you may think me disgusting or something but personally i think freedom of information is all or nothing and that includes anything - ie. child porn etc. but i do think it is the job of police to stop people from creating it. in an ideal world people wouldn't want to create it anyway but it is more important to educate and inform so that people know to set boundaries for themselves and not look at material they don't want to see.

fair enough if you think file sharing will take die down like trends have shown before, but it is likely that plenty of people who have downloaded from you have bought something from you - ('Last week another study was added to this ever growing list, arguing that pirates are 10 times more likely to buy music than those who don’t.')
full article - http://torrentfreak.com/why-pirates-buy-more-music-and-music-labels-fail-090428/ this article contains a lot of reasons our members agree with i would think.



Seeing things as all or nothing to me is a little bit dangerous to be honset, it's what leads to extremist points of view which ,again to my mind, is neither healty nor a constructive way to be. I mean that in a general context speaking to you as one individual to another and i guess a little bit outside of the debate we're having between ourselves here. Anyway me using the child porn example was probaly a bit much but i guess i was looking to see where the line would be drawn. Which brings me to next question, piracy related only. You seem to be in argeement with me (i think ;) ) that piracy in itself as an act is a bad thing. Where we seem to differ then is that i think it should be stopped, your of the ophion that becasue it now exists it should be allowed to continue to exist. That seems like slighty contracditory thinking to me.

Your also classing music as information now. Its not - its entermainent. Which in mind includes the spectrum from disco music for saturday night dancing to 'difficult' peices of modern classical. But its not information.

Academic studies are interesting things. Like most people i follow the debate about global warming. Both sides in that debate show different studies that 'prove' :roll: their point of view. Also i think it was back about page 1 or 2 in this tread that someone else linked two studies which contradicted each other about this subject. The accusation in the climate debate is that studies also show the answer that the person who pays for it wants to see. I would imagine that in this field its probaly not different in the slightest.
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Re: As a musician should i continue to create new music?

Postby Grunchtherunch » Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:31 pm

chelsea wrote:
grunchtherunch wrote:my POV is kind of more than one, i think art and culture should be shared, maybe it should be the choice of the artist but there is nothing we can do about it, but more than anything i just love a free culture. and by file sharing people are able to hear more music - which helps them create more diverse and learn more. because people file share does not necessarily mean they could buy the music if they didn't download it etc.etc.
and look i don't represent a view as a whole in the pirate party so take this next point as only my personal view.
you may think me disgusting or something but personally i think freedom of information is all or nothing and that includes anything - ie. child porn etc. but i do think it is the job of police to stop people from creating it. in an ideal world people wouldn't want to create it anyway but it is more important to educate and inform so that people know to set boundaries for themselves and not look at material they don't want to see.

fair enough if you think file sharing will take die down like trends have shown before, but it is likely that plenty of people who have downloaded from you have bought something from you - ('Last week another study was added to this ever growing list, arguing that pirates are 10 times more likely to buy music than those who don’t.')
full article - http://torrentfreak.com/why-pirates-buy-more-music-and-music-labels-fail-090428/ this article contains a lot of reasons our members agree with i would think.



Seeing things as all or nothing to me is a little bit dangerous to be honset, it's what leads to extremist points of view which ,again to my mind, is neither healty nor a constructive way to be. I mean that in a general context speaking to you as one individual to another and i guess a little bit outside of the debate we're having between ourselves here. Anyway me using the child porn example was probaly a bit much but i guess i was looking to see where the line would be drawn. Which brings me to next question, piracy related only. You seem to be in argeement with me (i think ;) ) that piracy in itself as an act is a bad thing. Where we seem to differ then is that i think it should be stopped, your of the ophion that becasue it now exists it should be allowed to continue to exist. That seems like slighty contracditory thinking to me.

Your also classing music as information now. Its not - its entermainent. Which in mind includes the spectrum from disco music for saturday night dancing to 'difficult' peices of modern classical. But its not information.

Academic studies are interesting things. Like most people i follow the debate about global warming. Both sides in that debate show different studies that 'prove' :roll: their point of view. Also i think it was back about page 1 or 2 in this tread that someone else linked two studies which contradicted each other about this subject. The accusation in the climate debate is that studies also show the answer that the person who pays for it wants to see. I would imagine that in this field its probaly not different in the slightest.


i never said music is information - MP3s are information and yes there is obviously a link, but talking only physically, they are information
and what you said about me thinking piracy is wrong, i think it is bad that artists do not get return in a lot of cases - and that is what i would like to see fixed with a new system including new technology as opposed to saying people who download are criminals - this is the main point of the PPUK.

and i wouldn't just make assumptions about studies on the topic - that way is just as bad as the way that says i like piracy because free stuff is great. of course it is a topic for debate however, doesn't it make sense that people that download buy more music? because they love music and want more of it.

so my opinions do not contradict they simply end with a different way of righting wrongs than yours ie. without possible censoring/blocking of digital material on the internet
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Re: As a musician should i continue to create new music?

Postby hxa7241 » Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:21 pm

So the question is it better for society to have better quailty music availbe at a reasonable price or have lesser avaible quailty music avaible for free? Have you considered this?


Indeed, and we need not be limited to that choice. Is it not even better to have both good creative product, and free (nearly) distribution? I am proposing that creative work is funded differently: in a way that both gives sufficient money to the creator and maximises distribution of -- and hence benefit of -- the created product. Or at least moves the balance nearer to that. Copyright is not the only way to be paid -- other systems can be better overall.
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Re: As a musician should i continue to create new music?

Postby chelsea » Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:59 pm

hxa7241 wrote:
So the question is it better for society to have better quailty music availbe at a reasonable price or have lesser avaible quailty music avaible for free? Have you considered this?


Indeed, and we need not be limited to that choice. Is it not even better to have both good creative product, and free (nearly) distribution? I am proposing that creative work is funded differently: in a way that both gives sufficient money to the creator and maximises distribution of -- and hence benefit of -- the created product. Or at least moves the balance nearer to that. Copyright is not the only way to be paid -- other systems can be better overall.


Okay, describe that better system then.
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Re: As a musician should i continue to create new music?

Postby valisk1 » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:41 pm

chelsea wrote:Sorry, don't understand why its unethicial to ban parts of the net or search engines that pirate material. What is ethically right about stealing from people? Don't get that to be honsent.


They are not stealing, they are copying without your consent.
you still retain the full set of rights as per previous and never lost a physical object.

Neither you nor I nor anybody can quantify just how much you may have lost in terms of chargabillity for your stuff, not how many more sales you made because you were reaching a much bigger market than previously.
Some will win and some will lose because of what has happened that much is for sure.

chelsea wrote:>In that case should the responsibility of making suring pirated work is not available be on the people who provide sites with this kind of content? And if it is on there site it is up to them to remove or face some kind of fine?


In a world where the listing, and categorizing of such links is not done by any one person but via algorithms inside computers due to the billions of potential links, it would need the Right's Holder's to both find the infringing work themselves and then provide evidence of infringement/ownership.

chelsea wrote:>sure, so some kind of system like i said above, and if a ISP provides a link to a pirate site in another country than the ISP be responsible? Google's set up with china shows that ISP's are able to regulate the material they link to


Google's setup in China is pretty much outright censorship, and it works via the Chinese Government banning vast swathes of the Internet and informing Google what to filter, Sorry mate, I can't support that being extended to the free world

chelsea wrote:
>Just because its not commerically viable, why should you have a right to them? Hell in that case most of my work would be classed public domain ;)


Why should I not? These are rights granted by government and not actual properties no matter how much they are dressed up.
It is however beside the point, you still would have the rights to them even if they did slip into the public domain, you just would no longer have the exclusive rights to them.

chelsea wrote:
>Don't understand the problem for you here. This is capitalism in effect i guess. Some people make money from something, other people don't. Maybe i'm missing a point here.


It's not capitalism, it's the exercise of a granted monopoly, Mercantilism would be a better description, and whilst the Record industry is theoretically in a state of competition between members, in practice it functions as a cabal.
(I exclude the Indie labels from this generalisation.)

chelsea wrote:Why should copyright holders be liable for a further tax beyond normal income tax on their work. Seems punitive.


In a free (or unfree) society governments are able to tax many diverse sources of income, a lot of them are visibly unfair and possibly punitive ;)

Unlike taxes, where you would have no idea if your taxes were going to be returned to you in any way at all. Here you would have a clear financial benefit from a transaction with your government assuming you chose correctly :)

I would be suggesting in this case, that Copyright expires after (lets say) 14 years unless the artist or owner (if the work was created for a company) chooses to purchase the right from the Government to enjoy the right to hold the monopoly over a longer period. This could be a small amount, say $1 per year, covering complete works such as Albums to prevent artists having to pay for each song, or it might be a very high amount covering a longer period of time.
Last edited by valisk1 on Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: As a musician should i continue to create new music?

Postby hxa7241 » Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:43 pm

Okay, describe that better system then.


* fund and release
* subscription
* sale of associated service or product
* controllable government funding
* statutory increase in (paid) employment vacation (ambitious!)
* others unknown or yet to be invented . . .

(and some of these are being used in various and/or incipient ways already)
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